INCREASINGLY BECOMING US VERSUS THEM. THAT’S BECAUSE PARTY IDENTITY, BE IT REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT, IS STRONGER THAN PEOPLE’S OWN INDIVIDUAL POLITICAL BELIEFS. AND THAT DIVISION NOT ONLY IS MAKING COMPROMISE VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE, IT’S MAKING PEOPLE MORE ACCEPTING OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE. LILLIANA MASON IS AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT JOHNS HOPKINS SNF AGORA INSTITUTE. SHE’S BEEN STUDYING THESE TRENDS FOR YEARS. AS DOCTOR MASON, IT’S SO NICE TO HAVE YOU. LET’S BEGIN WITH YOUR RESEARCH. WHAT DID YOU FIND IN YOUR YEARS OF STUDY ABOUT POLITICAL VIOLENCE? WE’VE BEEN STUDYING LEVELS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE, APPROVAL OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE IN THE ELECTORATE SINCE 2017. AND WHAT WE’VE SEEN IS THAT MOST AMERICANS DON’T APPROVE OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE. BUT EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, THOSE THOSE FEELINGS SORT OF SPIKE. SO AROUND DONALD TRUMP’S FIRST IMPEACHMENT, WE SAW APPROVAL OF VIOLENCE GO UP. ALSO AROUND OBVIOUSLY, JANUARY 6TH, WE SAW APPROVAL OF VIOLENCE ACTUALLY INCREASE, WHICH IS A COMMON PATTERN THAT WE ACTUALLY SEE, UNFORTUNATELY, IN THE ELECTORATE WAS THERE A REASON, SOMETHING THAT MADE YOU SAY, HEY, WE NEED TO START EXAMINING POLITICAL VIOLENCE? SO WAY BEFORE I STARTED STUDYING THESE ATTITUDES, I HAD BEEN STUDYING THE WAYS THAT DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS FEEL ABOUT EACH OTHER, NOT SO MUCH WHETHER OR NOT THEY’RE DEEPLY DISAGREEING ABOUT MATTERS OF POLICY, WHICH THEY DO, BUT THEIR FEELINGS TOWARDS THEIR POLITICAL OPPONENTS WERE GETTING MUCH AND MUCH MORE HOT. THEY WERE MORE ANGRY. THEY WERE MORE HOSTILE, DISTRUSTING OF PEOPLE IN THE OTHER PARTY. AND THE DIVIDES BETWEEN THEM EMOTIONALLY AND SOCIALLY WERE GROWING MUCH, MUCH WORSE. SO AS I WAS THINKING ABOUT WHAT ELSE COULD BE OCCURRING HERE, ONE THING THAT WE HADN’T SEEN BECAUSE NO ONE HAD LOOKED AT IN THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE, WAS WHETHER THESE PEOPLE ARE, YOU KNOW, JUST SORT OF DISLIKING ONE ANOTHER ANGRY, OR WHETHER THEY ACTUALLY ARE WILLING TO HARM ONE ANOTHER. AND SO THE THE MOST RECENT WORK HAS BEEN ASKING PEOPLE QUESTIONS LIKE, YOU KNOW, DO YOU AGREE THAT PEOPLE IN THE OTHER PARTY ARE A THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES? DO YOU THINK THEY’RE JUST WRONG FOR POLITICS OR DOWNRIGHT EVIL? AND SO THESE TYPES OF QUESTIONS, WE ACTUALLY FOUND THAT LARGE PORTIONS OF AMERICANS WERE WILLING TO SAY, PEOPLE IN THE OTHER PARTY ARE ARE A THREAT TO THE COUNTRY. THEY’RE EVIL. AND SOME OF THEM WOULD EVEN SAY THAT THEY’RE SUBHUMAN. OUR POLITICAL LEADERS COULD BE THE ONES WHO SORT OF STEP IN AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT? PEOPLE? LET’S GET BACK TO TALKING ABOUT POLICY. BUT OF COURSE, OFTEN THEY’RE THE ONES LEADING THE CONVERSATIONS, FREQUENTLY. AND ALSO THEY BENEFIT, I THINK, FROM THESE CONVERSATIONS. SO IS THAT CONSISTENT WITH. WHAT YOU’RE FINDING. RIGHT. SO ON ONE HAND THEY THEY ACTUALLY BENEFIT WHEN PEOPLE ARE ANGRY BECAUSE. THESE ANGER IS THE TYPE OF THING THAT GETS US UP AND GOING. IT’S WE CALL IT AN APPROACH EMOTION. SO WHEN WE’RE FEELING ANGRY, WE GET UP OFF THE SOFA AND WE DO STUFF. SO THAT’S REALLY GOOD FOR POLITICIANS IF THEY NEED TO ACTIVATE VOTERS. BUT THE ONE THING THAT WE FOUND IN OUR RESEARCH IS THAT ELECTED OFFICIALS HAVE A REALLY POWERFUL ROLE TO PLAY IN DETERMINING THE TYPE OF BEHAVIORS THAT AMERICANS THINK ARE ACCEPTABLE. AND WE WE TRIED SOME EXPERIMENTS WHERE WE SAID, YOU KNOW, JUST READ THIS ONE QUOTE FROM EITHER DONALD TRUMP OR JOE BIDEN THAT THAT BASICALLY SAYS, LOOK, VIOLENCE IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE. AND IT WAS EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE AT. MAKING PEOPLE DISAPPROVE MORE OF VIOLENCE. AND SO IT’S QUITE SIMPLE, ACTUALLY, TO DISCOURAGE VIOLENCE IN THE ELECTORATE AS A WHOLE. IT JUST REQUIRES RESPONSIBLE LEADERSHIP. WHAT HAS YOUR RESEARCH SHOWED YOU ABOUT WHERE THIS POTENTIALLY ENDS? AS WE SEE THESE KIND OF THE SOCIAL DIVIDES HAPPENING BETWEEN DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, THEY’RE NOT JUST SOCIAL. THEY’RE ALSO INCREASINGLY GEOGRAPHICAL. AND THAT MAKES IT HARDER FOR US TO ACCEPT THE OUTCOMES OF ELECTIONS, OFTEN BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING, I’VE NEVER MET SOMEBODY WHO WHO WOULD EVEN EVER VOTE FOR THAT CANDIDATE. THEY CAN’T HAVE POSSIBLY WON LEGITIMATELY. AND SO WE BECOME REALLY DISTANT FROM EACH OTHER AS FELLOW AMERICANS, AND THAT IT PREVENTS US FROM, YOU KNOW, HAVING FAITH IN OUR ELECTIONS, BUT ALSO IN DEFENDING OURSELVES FROM OUTSIDERS AND DEFENDING OURSELVES FROM PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HARM US AS A COUNTRY. AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT EVEN GEORGE WASHINGTON HIMSELF WARNED US ABOUT IN HIS FAREWELL ADDRESS WAS, IF YOU GUYS. FORM PARTIES, THEN YOU’RE GOING TO BE DISTRACTED AND OTHER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COME AND HURT US AND SO THAT HAS REALLY PROVED TO BE TRUE.